top tension banjo hardware

The blank for the hoop can be rolled from 3/4" square stock and brazed at the ends after annealing. Edited by - Ken LeVan on 02/27/2020 14:17:13. While your technique makes a beautiful instrument it is probably best suited for BG banjos and people who specifically want a top tension design.Having studied your tension hoops I think your design is more practical for custom builders than casting or machining from solid. This has been inspected and set up at the Banjo Warehouse in Atlanta Georgia. I am not a metallurgist, but my understanding is that different alloys with different characteristics are used for fabrication / machining from the solid and casting. I'm sure they did. FQMS, American Made Banjo Company, Stewmac, Berlile, Heartland Banjo, GIbson, Other big name manufacturers of instruments, Greg Boyd Music, (To my knowledge, the top tension parts thru Greg Boyd Music are made by Prucha) OR Prucha himself; and I am sure there are one or two more.... One manufacturer/supplier told me with his OWN mouth not long ago, that he will not sell single parts; you must purchase the entire set (tension hoop, bolts, flange, armrest, and "maybe" the tailpiece... don't exactly remember for sure about the tailpiece) Prucha, although the parts are still shown on the website, which I do check every so often, always says "currently out of stock," or temporarily unavailable" or some such. FULL SATISFACTION GUARANTEE Why make a simple part when one can add radiused edges, engraving, unique features?I talked to our shop manager about availability of tubing or pipe for the top hoop. All Rights Reserved. Tap the holes for hard inserts to begin with. I am also aware that they are few and far between. Geoff Hohwald Banjo Camps - geoffhohwald.com, Gibson banjo, deering banjo, stelling banjo, huber banjo, ome banjo, ode banjo, baldwin ode, gold tone, recording king, gold star banjo, morgan monroe banjo, 5 string banjo, flathead banjo, banjo made in usa, american banjo, prucha banjo, gibson rb3, gibson rb4, gibson rb250, We accept: I wonder if anyone  has used simple brackets that slip in wide tension band notches to retain Allen head bolts for building a top tension banjo? I don't guess Gibson ever really manufactured their own top tension hardware? The bridge is set with correct intonation. Eco brass has the strength of stainless steel. The parts would be machined from solid plate or core stock.Machining time is going to be about $300 a set. The flange would be modifying a production flange. YOUR THOUGHTS? Foundry patterns or match plates like we use take time to build. The resonator is rosewood and the neck is walnut. This is in great shape on top of being a really interesting Pre War Banjo. Good luck getting the product out of the country. This has a metal flange and shell that I am not sure what the metal is. The little guy is an easy mark for the many forms of corruption under which pacific rim countries operate.I wouldn't send money to any pacific rim country without a professional buyers representative. After long years of extensive experience in banjo and mandolin building, we are now proudly offering PRUCHA banjo and mandolin hardware for sale. Probably not. Bondo on top of standard parts would make for a poor pattern. Development time for the solids modelling and machine code development would be at least $8000. My answer generally would be generally that top tension parts are costly to develop and manufacture and that there is no readily available process to do it quicker and cheaper. It is not in the photos because I removed it because it hindered the path of the strings to the Keith D Tuners which will be included with the sale along with the original tuners. I am aware of Hawthorne banjos. Foundry pattern for standard Gibson style flange, Match plate for top tension hoop at the foundry after several pours. Great for melodic banjo styles as well as straight ahead … I'll start by saying that I don't know that much (if anything) about sand casting brass. We also have more Pre-Ernie Ball Music Man Stingray Basses and parts for sale than any store on earth! Our Hawthorn top tension hoop and flange. DVD-quality lessons (including tabs/sheet music) available for immediate viewing on any device. They have a full, rich and clear tone all the way up the neck and are plenty loud. Has a Gold MOP Truss Rod Cover. Includes Original Hardshell Case. I could also spend that time finishing a few very lucrative projects I promised to do. I don’t know what to tell you but these parts are expensive to make, not even taking into account development costs, which was significant. Check out the Banjo Warehouse Website for All Sorts of Interesting New, Used and Vintage Banjos for Sale!! I can't speak for India, other than having been warned by Indian friends against doing business without a professional buyers representative.Any way you look at it, castings from Asia aren't practical in small quantities. Thanks for the photos Glenn. Frisco Fred - Posted - 03/01/2020:  07:45:42. Their return on this investment is part of the profit on the sale of each banjo. While your technique makes a beautiful instrument it is probably best suited for BG banjos and people who specifically want a top tension design. Having said that, I think the Gibson version is an incredibly klutzy design probably assigned to a junior engineer who was told only to change the tension hoop when they did it. There's a few ways to manufacture the parts for a Top Tension banjo. Free Shipping within the U.S. ClayTech - Posted - 02/27/2020:  12:39:06, gregboyd.com/product/prucha-to...unplated/, Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/27/2020:  14:14:17. © 2020 Gbase - All rights reserved - v5.1.3385 (rd0003ffb05c44). In the event of a return, buyer is responsible for all shipping chargers including initial shipping to buyer. IS anyone else out there in banjo world wondering about this very same thing? SO it is quite obvious that SOMEONE feels the need and desire for these parts, so someone needs to fill this void. You didn't. "Most of the time I get carried away once I start programming. This leaves the obvious question....how do your TT's sound? I have no ulterior motive and am not intending to purchase or buying a set of these parts. He also said one can get just about any OD/ID combination you want. Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/01/2020:  08:27:18. I have been playing off and on for 50 years in NC and do not recall ever being in a jam with one. Is this person/s going to get rich doing it? Then there's the fabricated method. Cast from Eco brass and CNC machined. He has about a foot of aluminum tube that is 11" ID and 12" OD. I have heard thru the banjo underground grapevine that Mr. Berlile really isn't making this stuff anymore.... FQMS hasn't had those parts for several years. The Gibson design has taken on life of its own, based on I don't know what. The Great American Banjo Company You (or your people) machined that shape out of uniformly casting rings... a process similar to the manufacture to flathead tone rings. The way I make them does not require castings, the salient idea being that the resonator and flange can be removed as a unit and what you have is a clean openback without the tension nuts protruding underneath. That's taking a strip of brass and rolling it into a hoop. WHY is there no top tension banjo parts available anymore? All Forums You have to know what you’re doing. Pre War President by Gretsch Banjo Top Tension Tenor Banjo. And the third is machined from a solid sheet of brass.The Flange: because of it's shape, the standard method of manufacturing a flange is casting it in a permanent mold or possibly for a more limited production, using the lost wax and spinning it. I've said this before. But I was wondering how you could have gotten that complex shape with a sand casted part. Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/29/2020:  14:56:30. If that annoys you,  just make your own, as I do—that simple, then after you have set up a manufacturing operation, sell them to all those people who are frustrated that they can't find them and charge them a lot—seems as if there is a real business opportunity there. We buy bolts and arm rests from Jarda. ?? Pre War President by Gretsch Banjo Top Tension Tenor Banjo. And that's only the start. My -18 measures the same .250" radius at the outside of each pocket, but as you noted, the mass increases toward the band due to the .125" radius cut on each side where the pocket joins the band. Another is a brazed assembly. Weekly newsletter includes free lessons, favorite member content, banjo news and more. lightgauge - Posted - 03/01/2020:  04:37:48. One is to cast then machine both the flange and tension hoop.  Other Banjo-Related Topics Manufacturers and sellers require inventory to turn over a certain number of times per year to make a profit and these parts obviously did not meet the minimums.I have read many times that banjos are a small market and I wonder what percentage of banjos are top tension? There is no need to start with a piece of plate unless we are only making one or two hoops.Fabricating a flange from solid plate wastes quite a bit of brass, but I think one could waste a lot of brass before it becomes practical to have castings made.I've been to a few brass foundries in Malaysia and Thailand. We will accept return for absolutely ANY reason, and you have 7 days to decide. This is a really interesting Pre War Tenor Banjo called President which was made by … The flange would be modifying a production flange. Fathand - Posted - 02/28/2020:  13:49:49. I can remember many years ago seeing a large compass rose maybe 14" across the points that was cast of heavy brass at Pier One Imports and selling for somewhere around $10. http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/361566, 'Agree or disagree: the private sexual conduct of consenting adults------', '(Earl Scruggs) Foggy Mountain Breakdown - Banjo - Gunnar Salyer'. BUT COME ON FOLKS!! We have sold a few sets for cost plus a small profit but only if we had extra parts on hand. I think it's the law of supply and demand—if there was more demand for these parts, the supply would miraculously expand to fill it. While we are on this topic, we are working on doing our own Hawthorn top tension solid carved resonator. Then machining twenty four shouldered tubes out of bar stock. This has new Huber Truetone .10 gauge strings and the action is set nicely. This looks great, sounds great and plays great! Then there's the grinding and polishing... not to mention twenty four flanged square head screws...etc...etc...etc. Let me preface this topic with the thought that I'm sure this has probably been discussed before; but perhaps it's time to bring it up again (?). The headstock also has pearloid along with some colorful work. I wonder if later on, the drawing was revised as there's more beef to the metal around the humps on the production prewar T-T band. If the shoe is placed without enough space between its top edge and the bottom of the tension hoop the head will not be able to be fully tightened. This topic has been mentioned to me in the past, by many folks, and I have read threads here and elsewhere, about how hard these parts are to find. Meanwhile, I'd be happy to make you a top tension banjo, but it wouldn't be a Gibson copy, and I'm booked up until July at least. After brazing, the assembly would still need the twenty four holes in the bar stock drilled to size and counterbored. Does anybody have and Gibson specs or drawings? There's a few ways to manufacture the parts for a Top Tension banjo. This has been professionally set up at the Banjo Warehouse. The flange can be built up from segments in the same manner. There's a few ways to manufacture the parts for a Top Tension banjo.One is to cast then machine both the flange and tension hoop. The labor you put into your hoops is not wasted when you consider the cost of machining alone.My only interest in top tension hardware is to find a good use for an otherwise idle cnc mill. I do wish to point out that i do not mean, in any way, shape, form, or fashion to have this thread sound like I am picking on anyone who currently builds top tension hardware, or has thought about building, fabricating, or somehow producing top tension hardware in the future. No problem with distortion. Big customers have leverage. I do understand it will cost more, and the whole supply and demand thing - BUT is it really that much more expensive to produce a threaded flange as opposed to one that is not? The case has minimal wear and is also clean inside and out and structually sound. I keep them to remind me not to do it again. If you continue, we will assume that you agree to. I think sandcasting both of those parts then finish machining would be the most economical method for small batch. Assembling the parts in a welding (brazing) jig. 'Agree or disagree: the private sexual conduct of consenting adults------' 12 min, '(Earl Scruggs) Foggy Mountain Breakdown - Banjo - Gunnar Salyer' 20 min, 'Magpie (with time signature variation)' 1 hr. Banjo Capos Luthiers Apron Old-Time Banjo Strap Armrests Banjo Bridges Banjo Tools Banjo Strings Banjo Method Books Banjo Heads PBCO Hats Banjo Cases Banjo Rims Bracket Shoes Dowel Stick Hardware Fingerboards and Veneers Gotoh Tuners Rim Bolts Tailpieces Tension Hook Tension Hoops Tension Nuts Tone Rings Because I see the lack of these parts as a problem for those few folks who WOULD like to get some. and machining from there might yield a better result than making castings. Finally, hand grinding, polishing and plating.The low buck answer for a low volume run of tension hoops would be the brazed assembly. Cash, check, money order, Visa, Mastercard, AMEX, Discover, Paypal. Thread your flange, put a flat piece of wood inside your resonator and you are done (except for an armrest).Excellent idea. This is definitely in great shape. The fretboard also looks great with just a bit of fading in the position markers. $949. Top Tension Hardware Kit. All the usual spots one might obtain it from - (and forgive me, but YES, I will name names!!) Greg Boyd Music - they rely on Prucha. It's uncomfortable, ungainly, too heavy, the lugs on the tension hoop stick out too far and are on the top surface, they strangely decided to use drum bolts, the bolts thread into the flange, etc, etc. Edited by - backinthegame on 03/04/2020 08:22:11. but to make whatever a reasonable minimum number of sets may be required to do so in a run, BEFORE those 10 people call asking for them, only to be told it will be six months before you are likely to build another batch of those parts.... the entire thing just smells very mysterious to me. I have access to larger lathes. If it wasn't for Bill Keith and now Noam Pickelny, There would probably be no demand for the Gibson design at all. This has a new Remo frosted head which has been set to 90 on a drum dial. backinthegame - Posted - 03/05/2020:  05:35:30, El Dobro - Posted - 03/05/2020:  06:51:38. Here are the parts, all fabricated by hand —no castings—in truth, this is hard to do, and not a good idea for mass production, but mass production is not what I do. I too once wished for high quality, inexpensive top tension parts. This still has the original Grover Pat tuning keys plus an original Waverly tailpiece and is all original otherwise as well. So perhaps the answer is to those who do make or produce these things, to not wait until there are 10 or 15 folks wanting them, and then make 15 sets. RB18 TOP TENSION; ACCESSORIES. Tone rings can be fabricated from aluminum easily enough, and I have made three different kinds of those—there is no force on a tone ring that precludes normal aluminum welding. This is why I believe a hoop fabricated out of yellow and free machining brass is the only suitable alternative to one machined from a solid billet. Okay, that's my pre-excuse for any bad info. I have two in the shop now being finished up. Could they sell some of these parts? Anyone interested in a foundry pattern used for sand casting bronze top tension Gibson style hoops, send me a pm. I’ll take you up on your offer. Includes Original Hardshell Case. There might be an opportunity for someone to do that if there was a large enough demand. I guess I'm just more or less thinking out loud, but obviously I want to keep the conversation civil and polite. Yes - I am very aware that Mr Prucha still makes top tension parts. Metal shrinks in the mold when cooling and the foundry pattern has to allow for that. Or top tension bolts instead of standard hooks? This would be great for the eccentric collector or the serious player that wants a really cool pre war tenor in their arsenal. That would mean a heavy ring of steel with twenty four locating pins to hold the twenty four pieces of 1/2" diameter bar stock against a rolled ring of 3/16" x 9/19" brass strip. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. ?? Having said that - IF they were readily available, AND the cost was reasonable, I might be tempted to do just that!! Prucha is probably your best bet to get good quality parts at a fair cost. I've done it, but with the help of my partner who ran the foundry. Those are beautiful parts, Glenn. You could probably adapt conventional parts into a Top Tension mold by adding bondo etc. And I can get metals for half of what most builders would pay. Take your playing to the next level with the help of a local or online banjo teacher. Finally, hand grinding, polishing and plating.The low buck answer for a low volume run of tension hoops would be the brazed assembly. As was said about the ball field - IF you build it, the customer/s will come!! Over the past 40+ years we have made more than 100,000 banjos and every one of them has been crafted with special attention. As mentioned in the initial post, I am not now, nor expect to be, anytime soon in need of a set of these parts. I don't mean to be harping, but personally I see enough wanted ads for the stuff, and believe there to be at least a minimal amount of demand for those parts, that certainly someone would step up and try to keep one or two sets in stock.... Another thought - WHY are those parts SO prohibitively expensive? The third, and most expensive alternative is feeding molten brass under pressure into a permanent mold. And the third is machined from a solid sheet of brass. WE HAVE MORE PROFESSIONAL GRADE PRE OWNED 5 STRING BANJOS FOR SALE THAN ANY STORE ON EARTH. So Gregg, this is not some dark conspiracy, it’s simply supply and demand, dollars and cents. It always seemed like a good idea, being able to tension the head from the top. That's a lot of waste. Hide these Google ads: join the Players Union! the last time I checked in with them, they did have two armrests. Having studied your tension hoops I think your design is more practical for custom builders than casting or machining from solid. Aluminum is a very sonorous metal and I don't know whether rough casting a part and machining it would be better than machining from the solid. This has a pearloid fretboard with some really attractive and colorful position markers. It's low on my list at the moment.The problem of stripped threads on the flange is easy to fix. Everything is potentially a blue sky project. I'd love to see what you do with the CNC. Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright 2020 Banjo Hangout. Why not just add heli-coils or Keen-serts to an existing flange? Thanks to those of you who responded in some way. Impeccable all around. backinthegame - Posted - 03/04/2020:  08:11:53. Stewmac, same thing. My interest in the top tension idea goes back to my youth when my Father was a drummer. Your parts look great. We therefore designed and engineered our own hoops and flanges out of Eco brass. The other hardware is really clean and has a really nice shine to it. If a person were to make the parts from aluminum, they would have to be either machined or cast, as you say, because it would be too tenuous to weld all the lugs onto aluminum without seriously weakening it, not to mention the strength of the welds. Making 15 sets on speculation equates to putting $18,000 on the shelf and hoping for the best.I understand your frustration, Gregg. Discussions like this always make me wish that Gibson had vigorously protected their intellectual property. I doubt 2%, but just guessing. Assembling the parts in a welding (brazing) jig. I honestly prefer wasting time on the web.If I thought I could sell 100 sets in a year I could justify the effort. The hoop can also be made from 120 degree arc segments furnace brazed together. A friend of mine lost more than $10,000 in Vietnam trying to act as his own rep. Thailand is just as bad and Malaysia is worse. Then there's the fabricated method. No doubt it's readily available if one looks hard enough.My lathe will handle about 14" diameter near the headstock. I would either have to absorb or pass it on to the customer.OK, everything but the material is just time I might otherwise spend in irreverant discourse here or elsewhere on the web. The only additional work involves installing the inserts. All Hardware made by Harry Lane. I’m not sure exactly what questions we are exploring at this point. The Tension Hoop: this is one difficult part to make. Over the past 40+ years we have made more than 100,000 banjos and every one of them has been crafted with special attention. SO why am I fussing about it? This is a really cool find and it is really nice to have this rare Pre War tenor in the shop. Parts were hard to come by and expensive. Banjo Warehouse has a larger and more diverse selection of collector grade professional banjos than any store on earth. We offered top tension hoops and flanges on BH for a couple of years with no takers. As shelf items I would expect the Hawthorn parts to sell for at least $1200 a set. The bar stock would have to be drilled to fit the locating pins, milled flat on one side then cut into twenty four pieces. It's a wood pattern so much less expensive than an aluminum pattern. CALL TODAY 404-372-5482. We have more Gibson Banjos in stock than any store on earth and have Gibson Banjos from the Pre World War 2 Era all the way up to the 2010 flood. Another is a brazed assembly. Porosity is a frequent problem. This is a really interesting Pre War Tenor Banjo called President which was made by Gretsch. And the third is machined from a solid sheet of brass.The Flange: because of it's shape, the standard method of manufacturing a flange is casting it in a permanent mold or possibly for a more limited production, using the lost wax and spinning it. I doubt anyone stopped production or stocking inventory due to making too much money on them. Banjo Hardware | Shoe Bolts The bolts that fit the shoes are often 12-24 thread size as well, in any case they must match the shoe that they hold on. There is some engraving on the side of the shell which looks good. Ken;I prefer conventional hooks on an open back. Another is a brazed assembly. They would be happy for the business. If I make a set for my RK85 it will be in aluminum, along with the tone ring, to reduce weight. Thanks John. Cast from Eco brass and CNC machined. I made gaskets, seals, and bushings from it on a WWII turret lathe. The segments can be cut from plate on a waterjet with minimal waste. FREE USA SHIPPING.  ARCHIVED TOPIC: TOP TENSION BANJO PARTS AND HARDWARE!! Oldtwanger - Posted - 03/05/2020:  10:41:18. Bradford & Company Hawthorn® Top Tension Banjos. I love top tension banjos, and they have become the only kind of bluegrass banjo I make—I am working on two at the moment, BUT mine are not copies of the Gibson ones, nor do they work the same way. A large diameter cored casting can be chucked, rough turned inside and out, and parted into rough flanges or hoops. After CNC machining many of our hoops and flanges have to be repaired with silver solder prior to plating. Many of them specialize in sand casting brass for decorative art. Getting sections of aluminum pipe having the right I.D. President is a brand that was made by Gretsch before World War 2. All Resonator Hardware Coordinator Rod Hardware Tailpiece Bracket 24 Notched Hoops Hooks & Nuts Armrest Top Tension Hardware Tailpiece Tuners Banjo Head Bridges Thumb Picks: Displaying 1 - 36 of 46 products Previous 1 2 Next. Now there is a great solution to both cost and availability! I have been gathering drawings, data, and folklore in the hope of fabricating top tension replacement hoops and flanges.Using aluminum, my cost for materials would be close to $100 per set. That's taking a strip of brass and rolling it into a hoop. If I make a set for my RK85 it will be in aluminum, along with the tone ring, to reduce weight. Ken: "I'd love to see what you do with the CNC. A "G coded" three axis CNC Mill could cut the part out of a solid sheet of brass... turning a twenty pound chunk of brass into a ten ounce part. Do you have much trouble with post machining distortion? As for getting upset with people who won't sell individual parts, I must say that I don't sell parts, either—never have. Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/29/2020:  06:05:55. Fedex insured with signature delivery. Unfortunately, every machine shop has a shelf (or ten) of parts made on speculation. Even if they sold well the volume wouldn't justify castings. Historically, India has a huge "small shop" brass casting industry. Pre War President by Gretsch Banjo Top Tension Tenor Banjo. I suspect you are overestimating the demand. Interesting thoughts, Gregg. They probably have always had it contracted out or bought the parts elsewhere. We use most of them in our own banjos, which are not cheap. Not to be discouraging.... but...even a fabricated hoop would require a jig, similar to one used for furnace brazing. The latest Prucha T-T hoop is pot metal and looks just like the prewar Gibson hoop.I've never seen one, but it was rumored that the very early Gibson T-T hoop was pot metal. There are many companies online now that specialize in selling cut lengths.I recall brass and bronze cored castings from my apprenticeship days in the early 70s. lightgauge - Posted - 02/29/2020:  04:30:38. Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. If established suppliers can't justify keeping top tension parts on the shelf I doubt I could sell enough to recover the development cost.I still plan on making at least one set for my RK85. One is to cast then machine both the flange and tension hoop. A lathe, a few hours of labor, and Bob's your uncle. Our Hawthorn top tension banjo has a Red Maple neck and solid Curly Maple resonator with a flat inside surface. 550Spyder - Posted - 02/29/2020:  17:56:02. NEW BANJO CASES; NEW MANDOLIN CASES; NEW STRAPS; STRINGS; NEW T SHIRTS; Prucha Bluegrass Instruments offers THE FINEST ORIGINAL BANJO PARTS. A "G coded" three axis CNC Mill could cut the part out of a solid sheet of brass... turning a twenty pound chunk of brass into a ten ounce part. Our flange looks like a Gibson from the outside but is heavier and thicker and has bosses at the bolt holes. Notice the "Die Cast" spec on the original drawing blueprint: Our Hawthorn top tension hoop and flange. Top Tension Wrench included. ALL OF OUR SALES INCLUDE A 7 DAY FULL SATISFACTION GUARANTEE. Anyway, here are some pictures—no castings, no  klugey tension hoop, you don't need an armrest. That's a lot of waste. Regular (non top tension) armrest. Any time you sand cast ANYTHING it’s basically a crapshoot. By the time the foundry casts them, the machine shop machines them, and the plating shop plates them, we have almost $500 in the flange and $350 in the hoop. Hawthorn's cost is about $850 per set. EDIT:  I have no idea how to import a pdf directly. Maybe the cost was the key factor. Top Tension. Hard to justify the cost of a permanent mold for a short production run. This is a top tension tenor that has some really nice and attractive materials and is definitely a quality design. I do see more involved in the manufacture of the armrest and the tension hoop. We started manufacturing top tension banjos at Hawthorn instruments in 2014.  Banjo Building, Setup, and Repair Frisco Fred - Posted - 02/28/2020:  09:36:18. Why not just add heli-coils or Keen-serts to an existing flange?The Tension Hoop: this is one difficult part to make. Frisco Fred - Posted - 02/29/2020:  08:38:33. The resonator looks great as does the neck both with minimal wear. (not quite enough to build the entire banjo!!)

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